Vanessa Patrick on The Art and Science of Saying No - The Ideas on Stage Podcast

In this episode of the Ideas on Stage podcast we spoke with Dr. Vanessa Patrick. 

Vanessa Patrick, PhD. is an award winning researcher and teacher at the Bauer College of Business at the University of Houston. She is a regular speaker at both academic and practitioner conferences and her research investigates strategies to achieve personal mastery and inspire everyday excellence in oneself and others. Her new book is The Power of Saying No: The New Science of How to Say No that Puts You in Charge of Your Life.

In this episode we talked about the art and science of saying no. 

Transcript

What inspired you to choose the topic of saying no for your book and research?

I realised through personal experiences and research that many people struggle with saying no effectively. My research focuses on personal mastery and self-regulation, and I saw a gap in research about how to say no effectively. The positive media response to my initial papers confirmed that this was an important issue, leading me to write the book.

I find it hard to say no because I want to maintain a good reputation and relationships. What are your thoughts on this?

People struggle with saying no due to concerns about relationships, reputation, and lack of practice. ‘No’ is often a socially dispreferred response, and people worry it will make them seem incompetent or unkind. Learning empowered refusal, which stems from your identity, helps maintain relationships and reputation while effectively saying no.

Can you explain the concept of empowered refusal for those who haven't read the book?

Empowered refusal is saying no based on your principles, values, and priorities. It involves using identity-based rationale instead of external excuses, reducing pushback from others. For example, saying, "I don't take calls between 6 and 8 PM because it's family time," is an empowered refusal.

Are there common mistakes people make when saying no?

Yes, people often give wishy-washy responses or rely on external excuses, making their no seem negotiable. Clear and confident communication of your refusal, grounded in your identity, is crucial.

How do we balance the benefits of saying yes to new opportunities with the need to protect our boundaries and say no?

There are different phases: exploration mode, where saying yes is beneficial for growth, and focus mode, where saying no is essential to prioritise what matters. Identifying and transitioning between these phases is key to balancing yes and no.

Can you elaborate on the A.R.T. framework from your book?

The A.R.T. framework includes Awareness (understanding what matters to you), Rules (setting personal policies), and Totality of Self (ensuring your words and body language align when saying no). These competencies help develop the skill of empowered refusal.

How do we develop and implement personal policies?

It starts with self-awareness to identify pain points and then creating rules to navigate them. Announcements are communicated to others, while self-talk helps reinforce behaviours internally. Examples include not using your phone while driving or protecting creative time in the mornings.

How do we handle pushback when we say no?

Persistent pushback can be dealt with by standing your ground and repeating your no. For particularly challenging individuals, use strategies like avoiding face-to-face refusals and buying time to respond thoughtfully.

Can you explain different types of asks like "pass the salt asks" and "bake your famous lasagna asks"?

Pass-the-salt asks are low-cost to you but highly beneficial to others and should generally be accepted. Bake-your-famous-lasagna asks are high-cost to you with little benefit to others and should be declined. Hero's journey asks are challenging but worthwhile tasks that make a significant impact.

How do we say no to ourselves?

Self-talk and self-awareness are crucial. Instructional and motivational self-talk can help align actions with goals. Understanding your preferences and setting personal policies based on insights about yourself support self-discipline.

Any final thoughts or recommended books?

It's important to remember you have the permission to say no to things that don't matter. Recommended books include "The Year of Yes" by Shonda Rhimes and "You Have More Influence Than You Think" by Vanessa Bonds.